At the crossroads: Decisions shaping the next decade

Ben Hall (00:08)
welcome to the Nexus podcast where we explore the big questions shaping the future of infrastructure, energy and communities. I'm Ben Hall, Global Thought Leadership Manager at GHD. Today we're diving into GHD's CROSSROADS research, a landmark study that surveyed 13,000 people across 10 countries to uncover how different generations and communities see the future of infrastructure.
The findings reveal optimism and in some places deep concerns. Shared priorities include housing affordability, climate resilience and access to cleaner transport. Well, joining me to unpack what it all means is Melissa Ross. She's GHD's Strategic Growth Initiative Program Execution Lead. Melissa has been front and center of the Crossroads project. Thanks, Melissa, for joining us.

Melissa Ross (00:53)
Thanks for having me, Ben. It's good to be here.

Ben Hall (00:55)
Yeah, let's get straight into it. The title says it all, Crossroads. Now what was the central idea behind this research and why did GHD feel the need to take this intergenerational global look now?

Melissa Ross (01:06)
Yeah, it's a good question. And I think the title is quite provocative in the way that we think about the research. And I guess the central thesis we have and what we really wanted to test was born from this question or this statement we'd heard as a team, in market and with communities. And that statement was, are we the first generation to leave the world and our communities worse off for future generations?
sitting with that, you just think, is that what we're doing? And so the premise for, crossroads is that are the decisions we're making today going to leave us in a better or worse state into the future and for our future generations? And so, you know, we're at a crossroads. What decisions can we make to really influence the future?

Ben Hall (01:50)
It's very timely, of course, and that leads me into what I was going to ask you next. And one of the key headlines out of all of this was that Gen Z are more optimistic about the future, which I found surprising given where we're at, while the older generations, especially like from the so-called Anglo countries, which is the US, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, are more pessimistic. So what do you think is driving that divide?

Melissa Ross (02:14)
Hmm. It was really interesting. we all went into this research, I think having our own personal thoughts or bias of what we might see in the data. And I think we had heard a lot also in media, at least in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the US and the UK, that our younger generation were really doing it tough and that they were struggling with the cost of living And so I thought that
maybe they were going to be the more pessimistic generations. But, it actually turned out that we had, our older generations, Gen X and the boomers coming back and being more pessimistic about the future. And when we dove into the data to understand why that was, there are a few things that jumped out at us that probably pointed to that outcome. One of them is that although we're finding the cost of living rising,
It is generally our older generations who have ⁓ larger debt and larger mortgages. They've got kids at school. And so when they're taking in a holistic view of what the future holds and maybe for their children, there is a bit more of a pessimistic outlook. so conversely, it was really good to see that our younger generations were positive about the future.
And it's often interesting when you share this data to a room full of people across the generations. And I always ask the question before I can I jump in to get the feel of the room. And most of the time we find that the answers to the question in the room do actually reflect that larger survey data that we have from across the world.

Ben Hall (03:49)
Yeah, it's quite surprising. And you mentioned cost of living and of course, Housing is probably one of the biggest costs for all people, all generations, all countries. And this emerged as one of the top concerns from CROSSROADS. So how do these affordability pressures in housing differ across the generations? And what compromises are people sort of willing to take to address those concerns?

Melissa Ross (04:12)
Hmm. Yeah, there was quite a few, I guess, different ways that we wanted to understand the data that we could collect and ask these questions of the general population. And, you Housing has been and still is and I think will be for a while one of the big topics of ⁓ our time in terms of how we achieve more affordable housing. What we saw and again was quite interesting was that our younger generations ⁓ were not prioritising the ownership of homes. That may be our
Gen X, Boomers and even Millennials to a degree, the older Millennials were. And so we were seeing that for younger generations to be able to I guess, categorise their priorities, they were willing to compromise on home ownership to be closer to key amenities and facilities, cultural activities, restaurants and all that. Whereas we were seeing with our Boomers and our Gen X that they were
lessening to compromise on home ownership and then would compromise on location. And, you know, If I kind of translate that to what I see in real life, you would see then some more of those older generations living further away from urban centres, to have their own home and then compromising by having to travel a little bit longer into their place of employment or, you know, being further away from some of the essential services so that they could own their own home. was, you know, quite an interesting

Ben Hall (05:30)
And I suppose as people get
over, they're going to change as well, aren't they? Like the younger people are going to change as they get older and probably adopt the same sort of thinking.

Melissa Ross (05:35)
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. you kind of needs change across the generations, And as you go through life, there may be those, those changes in the way that think of what people perceive and think of what's important to them in life.

Ben Hall (05:50)
Yeah, that's right. And of course, climate resilience, water security, big issues, no matter where you are in the world. And the concern about those two issues were widespread throughout the whole Crossroads report. So can you break down what the main outcomes were with this? Because I know it's not an easy thing to do, but what did we find on that front?

Melissa Ross (06:10)
Yeah, so there were some really interesting perspectives, I guess, If we were looking at geographically how the data was spread, the breakdown of some of the water security and concerns were larger in some countries that I thought were quite interesting, like the Philippines had high concerns around water security as compared to maybe Australia and New Zealand and Canada. But then when we think about climate change and sustainability, there was a really clear
desire across the cohorts to have government and corporations do more to address climate change and sustainability, rather than the kind of individual do that to address climate change. And I think linking that back to the water security, what was really interesting as well is that we saw older generations, and this is probably in Australia more so,
older generations a lot more acutely aware of their water usage and how much they're using day to day. And I think there is some reasons for that. You know, We've gone through some significant droughts in Australia and across the world in the last couple of decades. And so we do have older generations more acutely aware of water usage. But then we had younger generations that were more willing to pay more for water so that everyone had access to water.
Or even to drink recycled water And so that was a key question that we asked is What would your willingness be to drink recycled or desalinated water? And we saw that some of the younger generations were more open to that so that water could be more equitably spread throughout a community.

Ben Hall (07:43)
Yeah, I think the water consumption was interesting, but I think going back to the top of your answer there, which is people want governments to do more. think the impression I received from the research was that people believe that they're doing their bit, but now it's up to the decision makers to do their bit now.

Melissa Ross (08:00)
Mm.

Ben Hall (08:01)
That's a message for leaders in government, I suppose.

Melissa Ross (08:04)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's, an understanding that there's only so much an individual can do that we have control over. And yeah, as we move through, see, you know, corporations having to take more responsibility for sustainability actions, but also that, corporations are a lot more accountable for how they show up within communities and that, you know, being able to operate within the communities. so there is this...

Ben Hall (08:10)
That's what I mean, yeah, exactly, yeah.

Melissa Ross (08:30)
deeper partnership that I think we see the need for coming through within the data of larger corporations working hand in hand with communities to meet those sustainability goals, bringing it above the individual to that community and that corporation level.

Ben Hall (08:44)
Yeah, and one of the things that grabbed me at the time was that there seems to be a clean energy paradox. So support for clean energy is strong. Three quarters of people believe it will create jobs and drive the economies around the world. Yet, on the other side of that, most worry that it won't be affordable and it won't be reliable. So how do we address that? And is that done at industry level, government level? what are your thoughts on that?

Melissa Ross (08:54)
Yes.
It's a big question. ⁓ I don't think I have the answer. I might be a lot more rich if I did, I think that it's quite interesting when you look at that renewable energy. You're right, it's a paradox. I think we know that it's going to be the way forward and the shift that we need to do to meet our goals. But there's a lot that comes from uncertainty. And I do think that's what a lot of this is born from is the...

Ben Hall (09:15)
⁓ no, come on, you should know!

Melissa Ross (09:37)
the uncertainty around what a renewable energy future might look like and that transition from more traditional fuel generation. And I think personally, and when I've talked to this with people who live maybe out of cities and in regional centers, they see the transition to renewable energy as not just a way for us to get energy, but also a significant shift for regions that have been responsible for producing.
our energy. And so it goes beyond potentially just that production of energy, but how our communities shift and how our workforces might need to shift to, I guess, respond to this change in the way that we consume energy and move from more traditional generating to renewables. And so I do think that that is part of it is that I'm no one around the shift of production and what it looks like for a community to to shift the way that
we receive and produce energy.

Ben Hall (10:35)
I suppose a thing that can be done is to really ram home the fact that this is a way of creating jobs, this is a way of driving economic prosperity in all regions. And I don't know about you, but I just don't feel that message is cutting through at the moment. It's getting lost in arguments over aesthetics, et cetera. Do you agree with that?

Melissa Ross (10:50)
Mmm.
Yeah,
I think so. I do think about this a lot. I've been in the industry, ⁓ you know, about 18 years. And during that time, I've worked on renewable energy projects, know, gas projects and mines throughout my career. And that point you made Ben around the aesthetics, the impact of community to community is really interesting. you might drive past a coal mine and you would see only the people to directly impacted a really tight.
close to that mine. Whereas when we think about solar or wind, it is a much larger area. So you've got more community members maybe seeing the impacts of that. So there's this perception around the benefits to community and that long-term impact that I think is not that needs to shift. It's part of it's a reality of renewable energy. And so how do we work with community to then take them on that journey around
what the impacts to community, what the benefits to community are as well. So I think you're spot on in terms of that perceived impact and that visual amenity ⁓ is something that might be distracting us from the end goal there around renewable energy.

Ben Hall (12:01)
Absolutely. And look, no surprise that one of the key aspects of Crossroads was that public transport and safer active travel were ⁓ universally demanded by people. And that's not really a surprise. So what are the biggest takeaways about how people are moving around and how can infrastructure and industries like ours support that shift?

Melissa Ross (12:12)
you
Yeah, mobility, exploring mobility, active transport and public transport were really key parts in the study. Because we know that having more choice of how you can get to essential services really allows for community resilience and that intergenerational equity across the generations. Not everyone has
the financial ability or ⁓ just ability to drive their own private vehicle. And so we knew that public transport, active transport was a really good indicator of resilient community. And so in the data, what we wanted to understand was do people think that they had the options to move around their community, go to employment, health services, shopping, all those things without having to use a vehicle.
And what we found that it was actually quite a mix across the countries that, you know, generally there was a desire for more active travel, And, it of links back to that housing question we had right at the beginning is that we saw younger generations wanting to live closer to more travel options because they didn't see owning a vehicle as a priority.
as opposed to our older generations who were more likely to use a vehicle to travel around. And so what that means, I guess, for making decisions is we able to create those opportunities for using a mode shift? And what I mean is how do we change someone's mindset from maybe hopping in the car to take that two minute drive to taking a bike or walking?

Ben Hall (13:48)
Hmm. Yep.
Are we talking e-bikes and e-scooters, et cetera, as well? Or when we talk about active travel?

Melissa Ross (13:54)
Yeah, the e-scooters, also,
you know, personal mobility. Yeah, that type of thing. So, you know, what are the options other than private vehicles that we can use? And we've seen your real uptick in the electric bikes, know, sale of those for households who probably don't want to invest in a second vehicle is, you know, another really great option. But how do we work with governments and decision makers to have that link from maybe your home to the train station or bus station to be able to then jump on a bus to travel the second journey of your trip?

Ben Hall (13:58)
Yep.

Melissa Ross (14:22)
So that was really interesting and also understanding is public transport affordable? Is that a barrier? And one of the key data points that actually has really stuck with me throughout the understanding of the research is we also cut the data by gender and there was a specific kind of tick down when we talked about safety for females in the Gen Z and millennial cohort.
around feeling safe access to transport and active transport and public transport. And so there's another consideration around how do we make active transport and public transport safe for women and girls so that there's this not a gender divide when we're looking about people's ability to access these services.

Ben Hall (15:05)
And look, technology is playing a huge role in the changes that are going on through infrastructure, water, energy, etc. And obviously younger generations are embracing this and so are the older generations. But privacy concerns still remain a big issue. I mean, big question for you again, another one. I hope you're all right with this one. How do we design, yeah, okay, how do we design digital infrastructure?

Melissa Ross (15:26)
Throw it at me.

Ben Hall (15:31)
that communities trust and value.

Melissa Ross (15:34)
Hmm, it's so hard. again, I don't think I have the answer, but I'll give you my perspective, we're seeing the rise of AI and this is both, opportunity and a constraint, I think, in the way we address these big concerns. AI and smart and intelligent systems can be used so well to improve our infrastructure.
that we have to be able to do more with less in terms of funding and budgets through like in the UK, they've got smart water metering, which is AI driven. We can improve safety and traffic ⁓ through the use of smart traffic systems, ⁓ Compass IoT, where we can see areas of safety or concern on the roads with vehicles. And so there's so many benefits to being able to use this ⁓
rapid technology to be able to improve our infrastructure. Going back to the question around individuals and climate change and water, there ways that we can now use smart metering for me to like hop on an app and see how much ⁓ I'm spending on my electricity or how much my solar is generating for me. ⁓ those things are really, really beneficial in terms of thinking into the future around how technology is enabling more from our infrastructure.
But privacy again is something that we're seeing through the use of AI that is, think, bit getting degraded and a little bit of trust in this is definitely lost with the community. And I just, don't know what that answer is on how we change that. But I think we were seeing these younger generations were more willing to embrace new technology, maybe understanding the the benefit and risk of.
being able to use these new technologies to be able to achieve their own personal goals around sustainability or mobility and those type of things that they're looking at to improve their life and their community.

Ben Hall (17:29)
Yeah, it feels like that we're rushing to develop technology, but we're not really communicating that there's also efforts being made to make it safer and to protect data, etc. And that's probably something that the industry as a whole could probably do as well.

Melissa Ross (17:44)
Yeah, you tend to only hear the bad things, right? The things that go wrong, rather Yeah, it's that the media will definitely want to talk about the things that are probably, that are important, but where we hear an outcome that is not ideal for use of AI in our data.

Ben Hall (17:47)
Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
And ⁓ the old work from home issue is a big thing in Australia. know throughout the world, it's also every country's got its issues and its thoughts and it's an ongoing debate. And we tackled this in Crossroads, which was interesting, And for you, what stood out amongst the different generations about remote work and the spaces they need to perform their work?

Melissa Ross (18:13)
Mmm.
Yeah, so it's interesting Working from home definitely changed the way that our communities I guess, engage as well. And so that's why we really wanted to explore what people thought about working from home. I I think there's a generational divide or a perspective of the older generations around being able to go into the office and probably more traditional approach to working within an office environment,
having spent the most of their careers in that, you know, that traditional office environment. And we know that there are benefits from having everyone together, you cultural connection and ⁓ people being able to learn. But we're also seeing that younger generations - our Gen Z, we're really wanting to have a balance commuting. ⁓

Ben Hall (19:09)
So they were happy being at home,
but also they wanted to go into the office as well. Is that what you're saying? So a bit of both.

Melissa Ross (19:14)
I think there's a bit of both and we see that in the offices that people still desire connection, but they also desire that flexibility. And I guess there's a productivity increase to a degree when you're not traveling. And there is that new mid range of generations where there's productivity at home when you're able to work from home and, you know, be able to look after the family or put some washing on.

Ben Hall (19:16)
Bit of both, yeah.

Melissa Ross (19:37)
I think what we'll see in the future from that is a change in the way that we design our workspaces and the way our CBDs operate.

Ben Hall (19:44)
Yeah, that's one of the many, many topics within Crossroads that could be a standalone issue on its own. You could break that off and go on for hours about it, but we'll do that another time maybe. I thought it was really fascinating as well. And look, I know you've just moved in Brisbane and you say your office is a bit cluttered. Have you got your crystal ball there?

Melissa Ross (19:51)
Mmm.
⁓ I'll just pull it out from the drawer next to me.

Ben Hall (20:03)
Yeah, there you
go, because I'm going to throw one at you here. We're going to ask you to look ahead to 10 years and what progress on all these issues do you think we'll see? I know it's a broad question. And what will success look like for future generations from where we are today?

Melissa Ross (20:10)
Hmm.
Yeah, excellent question. Big question. I think a good one to finish look 10 years into the future and it's interesting. I think that, going back to my point around, you know, technology and how that's helping us do more with less and, you know, the individual versus government and the corporation priorities around climate change. I think we'll see a lot of the maybe

Ben Hall (20:22)
Big one I know.

Melissa Ross (20:46)
pains we're having at the moment in terms of that transition from some of the more traditional ways of delivering infrastructure to technology enablement will mean that things like mobility, the energy and our water may be easier to track and easier for individuals to manage. And so I would hope that we could see some changes in the way that our people, people in communities perceive their ability to access active travel.
⁓ able to be safer on the roads. And we talked a lot about renewable energy and that transition and within 10 years, I think that question would be completely different and it might not be something that we're as focused on as we make that transition is well away, moving from our traditional generating to renewable energy. I think I'm kind of mixing the answer to what success looks like and what we might find here.
I do think that, well, I hope that we would see a, you know, more positive answers to some of the areas of mobility. Housing maybe I'm showing my generation here. ⁓ Being a little bit older, I'm probably bit pessimistic about the housing market. I'm not sure that housing affordability will change in 10 years. So, and you know, success will look.

Ben Hall (21:58)
It hasn't changed. know
in Australia and Canada, it hasn't improved for a long time.

Melissa Ross (22:05)
Yeah, and I have been out of uni for quite a few years and I can tell you when I was at uni doing my town planning degree, housing affordability was a hot topic then. So, you know, the question is we haven't kind of nailed how we address housing affordability. And so I'd love to think in ten years we have, but history tells us that we've still got a long way to go in that space. And so I would love to be able to
do this again in 10 years, even before that, to see and track longitudinally how our communities respond to these questions over that time. And so I think that would be a great outcome to be able to track these changes that we're seeing and be able to track the way that the decisions we're making today are impacting these generations and our communities in the next 10 years.

Ben Hall (22:50)
That's really good and I think that is a good way to wrap up this Nexus podcast. Thank you, Melissa Ross, for sharing your insights on this Crossroads research. It's been really great chatting to you.

Melissa Ross (23:01)
Thanks Ben. Thanks for having me. I've enjoyed talking about Crossroads.

Ben Hall (23:04)
and look, think there's one clear message or a few clear messages, to be honest, and a few takeaways in that communities everywhere share common hopes, especially on affordable housing, clean energy, resilient infrastructure. The challenge now is how we get governments, industry, communities working together to turn those aspirations into action. I'll send you a Teams message for 10 years time and see how we go, Melissa.

Melissa Ross (23:25)
Thanks, Ben. I'll see if I'm working from home or in the office. Excellent.

Ben Hall (23:27)
Yeah, we'll see. right. I'm Ben Hall and
this has been the Nexus podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.