PFAS and public trust: Why engagement matters as much as remediation

00:00:01:14 - 00:00:04:12
Nexus published by GHD.

00:00:04:14 - 00:00:07:14
Actionable foresight.

00:00:07:20 - 00:00:09:13
Most organizations approach

00:00:09:15 - 00:00:11:10
PFAS as a technical problem.

00:00:11:11 - 00:00:13:20
Test it, treat it remediated.

00:00:13:20 - 00:00:15:08
But for the communities

00:00:15:08 - 00:00:16:19
living with it, PFAS

00:00:16:19 - 00:00:18:14
is something else entirely.

00:00:18:15 - 00:00:19:11
It's uncertainty,

00:00:19:11 - 00:00:21:06
and sometimes it's anxiety.

00:00:21:08 - 00:00:22:18
Welcome to Nexus Podcasts.

00:00:22:18 - 00:00:23:16
I'm Ben Hall,

00:00:23:17 - 00:00:25:05
global thought leadership manager

00:00:25:05 - 00:00:26:03
at GHD.

00:00:26:05 - 00:00:28:19
Today I'm joined by Sharon Sebastian,

00:00:28:20 - 00:00:29:23
executive advisor

00:00:29:23 - 00:00:31:19
and business advisory at GHD,

00:00:31:19 - 00:00:32:14
to explore

00:00:32:14 - 00:00:33:10
why PFAS

00:00:33:10 - 00:00:35:11
community engagement is no longer

00:00:35:11 - 00:00:37:00
just about communication.

00:00:37:00 - 00:00:38:12
It's all about trust,

00:00:38:13 - 00:00:40:13
social license and leadership.

00:00:40:14 - 00:00:42:14
Sharon, Thank you Ben.

00:00:42:14 - 00:00:43:21
Really looking forward

00:00:43:21 - 00:00:44:19
to having a conversation

00:00:44:19 - 00:00:46:10
with you about this topic.

00:00:46:12 - 00:00:47:12
So let's kick it off

00:00:47:12 - 00:00:49:03
with a big broad question.

00:00:49:03 - 00:00:51:04
Firstly, just give us an overview of

00:00:51:04 - 00:00:52:08
what actually is

00:00:52:08 - 00:00:53:12
for those who don't know, even

00:00:53:12 - 00:00:55:00
though it's quite a well-known topic.

00:00:55:00 - 00:00:58:02
And also secondly, just explain why

00:00:58:09 - 00:00:59:04
PFAS engagement

00:00:59:04 - 00:01:00:12
is so much different

00:01:00:12 - 00:01:01:13
to other traditional

00:01:01:13 - 00:01:03:07
stakeholder engagement.

00:01:03:09 - 00:01:04:18
two very good questions, Ben.

00:01:04:18 - 00:01:08:08
And per and polyfluoroalkyl

00:01:08:10 - 00:01:10:07
substances, otherwise known

00:01:10:07 - 00:01:12:15
very commonly as PFAS.

00:01:12:17 - 00:01:13:15
You'd be surprised

00:01:13:15 - 00:01:16:02
you'd find these small amounts

00:01:16:02 - 00:01:19:12
in your nonstick pants, your shampoos,

00:01:19:14 - 00:01:20:14
your soaps.

00:01:20:14 - 00:01:23:11
So it's a pretty common chemical.

00:01:23:13 - 00:01:26:13
However, where we've started to see

00:01:26:13 - 00:01:28:03
it'd be quite prevalent

00:01:28:03 - 00:01:28:19
and require

00:01:28:19 - 00:01:30:05
remediation is where

00:01:30:05 - 00:01:31:07
we've actually founded

00:01:31:07 - 00:01:33:03
in firefighting font

00:01:33:04 - 00:01:35:11
that historically was used

00:01:35:11 - 00:01:38:15
and has now since being phased out.

00:01:38:21 - 00:01:41:12
So what happens with PFAS

00:01:41:14 - 00:01:43:09
it seeps into the groundwater

00:01:43:11 - 00:01:44:17
you can't get rid of it.

00:01:44:17 - 00:01:48:12
So it's a pretty stubborn chemical and

00:01:48:14 - 00:01:49:17
there's quite a lot of work

00:01:49:17 - 00:01:50:11
that's happening,

00:01:50:11 - 00:01:53:18
I will say globally to actually address

00:01:53:20 - 00:01:55:14
and remediate PFAS

00:01:55:14 - 00:01:57:19
historically at different sites

00:01:57:19 - 00:01:59:13
where it's been used across

00:01:59:13 - 00:02:01:05
different sectors, primarily

00:02:01:06 - 00:02:02:07
firefighting foam,

00:02:02:07 - 00:02:03:13
I would say

00:02:03:15 - 00:02:05:11
has been the most common issue.

00:02:05:13 - 00:02:07:01
to your second question

00:02:07:01 - 00:02:08:21
about why it's so different.

00:02:08:21 - 00:02:10:03
I would go to

00:02:11:16 - 00:02:12:22
it is an unknown.

00:02:12:22 - 00:02:14:10
It's a new contaminant

00:02:14:12 - 00:02:15:10
You could say it's

00:02:15:10 - 00:02:16:21
an emerging contaminant.

00:02:16:21 - 00:02:18:10
Even though we've known about it

00:02:18:10 - 00:02:19:02
for a little while,

00:02:19:03 - 00:02:20:11
it's still learning more

00:02:20:11 - 00:02:21:05
and new

00:02:21:07 - 00:02:22:10
as the science

00:02:22:11 - 00:02:24:23
gets more robust as well.

00:02:25:01 - 00:02:26:20
And for community,

00:02:26:20 - 00:02:28:15
it can cause uncertainty

00:02:28:16 - 00:02:29:01
and a little

00:02:29:02 - 00:02:30:20
bit of anxiety in a way,

00:02:30:20 - 00:02:32:20
because of those unknowns.

00:02:32:20 - 00:02:33:13
The main thing

00:02:33:13 - 00:02:34:11
I would say around

00:02:34:11 - 00:02:36:08
that uncertainty is with

00:02:36:08 - 00:02:39:13
the groundwater kids may be affected.

00:02:40:21 - 00:02:42:17
Not having those clear time

00:02:42:18 - 00:02:44:14
frames around

00:02:44:14 - 00:02:46:21
when this emerging contaminant

00:02:46:21 - 00:02:47:18
can actually be

00:02:47:19 - 00:02:49:00
remediated

00:02:49:01 - 00:02:52:01
on different projects can cause issues.

00:02:52:05 - 00:02:53:17
So it's all young knowns

00:02:53:19 - 00:02:55:09
is what sort of courses concern

00:02:55:09 - 00:02:57:06
for people and communities basically

00:02:57:07 - 00:02:59:11
who are surrounded by this.

00:02:59:13 - 00:03:00:11
It is because you're

00:03:00:11 - 00:03:02:07
not just explaining data

00:03:02:07 - 00:03:04:04
when it comes to PFAS.

00:03:04:06 - 00:03:05:11
You're dealing with something

00:03:05:11 - 00:03:06:20
that it's not tangible.

00:03:06:20 - 00:03:07:22
You can't see it.

00:03:07:22 - 00:03:10:08
And because it's so persistent

00:03:10:08 - 00:03:12:21
in some communities or some areas

00:03:12:21 - 00:03:15:07
where contamination may have occurred,

00:03:15:09 - 00:03:17:13
it can be quite deeply personal

00:03:17:13 - 00:03:19:05
for the individuals and communities

00:03:19:05 - 00:03:20:12
who are actually having to

00:03:20:13 - 00:03:21:15
deal with it.

00:03:21:15 - 00:03:22:23
So it's something

00:03:23:00 - 00:03:24:11
to keep front of mind

00:03:24:11 - 00:03:25:17
when embarking

00:03:25:17 - 00:03:27:16
on a remediation project.

00:03:27:17 - 00:03:30:00
Yes, the science is definitely there

00:03:30:00 - 00:03:31:02
to back up the work

00:03:31:02 - 00:03:32:05
that needs to happen,

00:03:32:06 - 00:03:35:05
but the how and what is communicated to

00:03:35:07 - 00:03:37:15
community also needs to resonate

00:03:37:15 - 00:03:38:18
with them

00:03:38:20 - 00:03:40:04
in a meaningful way

00:03:40:04 - 00:03:41:15
where they've got time

00:03:41:15 - 00:03:45:15
to review, digest and come back with

00:03:45:17 - 00:03:46:22
because they're going to have questions

00:03:46:22 - 00:03:48:07
so they can come back and ask you

00:03:48:07 - 00:03:49:09
the questions that they have,

00:03:49:10 - 00:03:50:07
because you're not going to be

00:03:50:08 - 00:03:51:17
able to solve it all

00:03:51:17 - 00:03:53:00
in just one factsheet.

00:03:53:01 - 00:03:54:11
There's going to be ongoing

00:03:54:12 - 00:03:55:17
conversations that you

00:03:55:18 - 00:03:58:02
you would expect to occur.

00:03:58:04 - 00:03:59:19
So obviously in these PFAS

00:03:59:19 - 00:04:00:15
affected communities,

00:04:00:15 - 00:04:02:07
trust is already fragile

00:04:02:07 - 00:04:04:03
and maybe even even worse than that

00:04:04:03 - 00:04:05:02
in some occasions.

00:04:05:02 - 00:04:06:18
So what are organizations

00:04:06:18 - 00:04:07:08
most likely

00:04:07:08 - 00:04:09:06
to get wrong in those early,

00:04:09:06 - 00:04:11:05
early stages of engagement?

00:04:11:07 - 00:04:12:23
it might not be all organizations.

00:04:12:23 - 00:04:14:07
We're definitely getting better.

00:04:14:07 - 00:04:16:14
I would say just across the board.

00:04:16:14 - 00:04:19:14
When it comes to PFAS engagement,

00:04:19:20 - 00:04:21:20
it is different in a sense

00:04:21:20 - 00:04:22:19
where you're not dealing

00:04:22:19 - 00:04:25:09
with infrastructure, where you know

00:04:25:11 - 00:04:26:19
where something's going to be built,

00:04:26:19 - 00:04:29:13
you know what your timelines are.

00:04:29:15 - 00:04:30:15
there is something,

00:04:30:15 - 00:04:31:23
as I said, tangible.

00:04:32:00 - 00:04:33:04
You're building something.

00:04:33:04 - 00:04:36:05
It's quite easy for a community member

00:04:36:07 - 00:04:37:14
to get their head around

00:04:37:14 - 00:04:38:17
what to expect.

00:04:38:17 - 00:04:40:07
Whereas when you're dealing

00:04:40:07 - 00:04:41:13
with the intangible

00:04:41:13 - 00:04:43:12
and data and science

00:04:43:12 - 00:04:45:21
and they can't see it going in

00:04:45:21 - 00:04:47:18
with quite a lot of information

00:04:47:19 - 00:04:48:19
up front,

00:04:48:20 - 00:04:50:05
especially to a community

00:04:50:05 - 00:04:51:00
where you're looking to

00:04:51:01 - 00:04:51:19
actually build

00:04:51:19 - 00:04:52:22
an understanding,

00:04:52:22 - 00:04:54:21
rapport and relationship

00:04:54:21 - 00:04:56:10
with them in the long term

00:04:56:10 - 00:04:57:14
because you're not going to

00:04:57:15 - 00:04:59:01
clean this stuff up

00:04:59:03 - 00:04:59:15
a week,

00:04:59:15 - 00:05:01:14
you're really going to need

00:05:01:14 - 00:05:03:08
to take a couple of steps

00:05:03:08 - 00:05:04:23
back, assess

00:05:04:23 - 00:05:06:08
who you're actually speaking

00:05:06:09 - 00:05:09:09
to the very early stages, know

00:05:09:11 - 00:05:10:14
what their key drivers

00:05:10:14 - 00:05:12:12
influence interests are.

00:05:12:14 - 00:05:13:06
You know,

00:05:13:08 - 00:05:14:05
for example,

00:05:14:05 - 00:05:17:04
is it near agricultural property

00:05:17:06 - 00:05:20:16
IU in a heavily populated

00:05:20:18 - 00:05:21:21
suburban area?

00:05:21:23 - 00:05:24:15
those things need to be looked at prior

00:05:24:15 - 00:05:25:16
to actually coming up

00:05:25:16 - 00:05:26:18
with what

00:05:26:18 - 00:05:28:10
you're going to engage with them

00:05:28:10 - 00:05:30:19
and how you're going to engage them

00:05:30:21 - 00:05:34:00
as well, as opposed to here's

00:05:34:02 - 00:05:35:13
a piece of communication

00:05:35:13 - 00:05:38:01
with all of the technical information

00:05:38:03 - 00:05:39:10
to share directly

00:05:39:10 - 00:05:41:12
with that particular community member,

00:05:41:12 - 00:05:42:21
and they're

00:05:42:21 - 00:05:44:08
then expected to take that away,

00:05:44:09 - 00:05:45:08
decipher it,

00:05:45:08 - 00:05:46:19
and it can be quite

00:05:46:19 - 00:05:47:19
overwhelming as well

00:05:47:19 - 00:05:48:15
when you provide

00:05:48:15 - 00:05:49:23
that type of information.

00:05:49:23 - 00:05:51:00
And all of a sudden

00:05:51:01 - 00:05:52:18
the technical team stays,

00:05:52:18 - 00:05:54:14
but the people side

00:05:54:16 - 00:05:55:14
takes a step back

00:05:55:14 - 00:05:58:01
or at times, in some cases

00:05:58:02 - 00:05:59:21
not disappears.

00:05:59:23 - 00:06:01:10
So where does that community member

00:06:01:11 - 00:06:02:22
then go to ask questions?

00:06:02:22 - 00:06:04:15
Because the scientist is brilliant.

00:06:04:16 - 00:06:07:02
However, there needs to be that

00:06:07:02 - 00:06:09:01
in between in empathizing

00:06:09:01 - 00:06:09:21
and understanding

00:06:09:21 - 00:06:11:01
what that community member

00:06:11:01 - 00:06:12:21
has to say as well.

00:06:12:23 - 00:06:13:14
is facts

00:06:13:14 - 00:06:14:08
alone are not enough

00:06:14:08 - 00:06:16:09
when it comes to PFAS is it really is.

00:06:16:10 - 00:06:16:23
And also,

00:06:17:00 - 00:06:18:09
with science still evolving,

00:06:18:09 - 00:06:19:13
it must be difficult

00:06:19:15 - 00:06:20:10
being in a situation

00:06:20:10 - 00:06:21:08
to be able to communicate

00:06:21:08 - 00:06:22:09
that risk effectively.

00:06:22:10 - 00:06:23:10
Is that correct?

00:06:23:11 - 00:06:26:02
I would say, in short, yes, definitely.

00:06:26:04 - 00:06:27:11
technology and it's

00:06:27:13 - 00:06:29:04
the science has gotten so much better.

00:06:29:04 - 00:06:30:21
And if I look back to

00:06:30:21 - 00:06:32:15
when this first became

00:06:32:17 - 00:06:34:23
a prevalent issue, a known issue,

00:06:34:23 - 00:06:36:19
and it would be going back

00:06:36:19 - 00:06:40:12
ten, 12 years where we first started

00:06:40:14 - 00:06:42:19
embarking on this journey,

00:06:42:21 - 00:06:43:19
and in some cases,

00:06:43:19 - 00:06:46:02
maybe a little bit longer than that.

00:06:46:04 - 00:06:47:00
The technology's

00:06:47:00 - 00:06:48:14
moved so far ahead,

00:06:48:15 - 00:06:50:09
and being able

00:06:50:09 - 00:06:52:06
to communicate that in a simple way

00:06:52:06 - 00:06:53:19
to community, to reassure

00:06:53:19 - 00:06:56:07
them is also important.

00:06:56:07 - 00:06:58:05
And at we forget that.

00:06:58:05 - 00:07:01:00
So some remediation projects could take

00:07:01:01 - 00:07:02:01
say between

00:07:02:03 - 00:07:03:12
the time frames are dependent.

00:07:03:13 - 00:07:06:14
I'm not a environmental engineer,

00:07:06:16 - 00:07:07:16
so I won't try

00:07:07:17 - 00:07:09:07
to speak to the science to that.

00:07:09:07 - 00:07:11:02
But depending on those timeframes,

00:07:11:02 - 00:07:12:02
as the technology

00:07:12:02 - 00:07:13:20
changes, your messaging

00:07:13:20 - 00:07:15:20
and the information that you share

00:07:15:20 - 00:07:17:03
with the community

00:07:17:04 - 00:07:19:16
or stakeholders should also evolve.

00:07:19:16 - 00:07:20:19
So it can't be a set

00:07:20:19 - 00:07:22:12
and leave approach.

00:07:22:14 - 00:07:24:09
And you've coauthored a two part

00:07:24:09 - 00:07:26:08
weekly column on this very topic,

00:07:26:08 - 00:07:26:23
and in that

00:07:27:00 - 00:07:27:22
you talk about moving

00:07:27:22 - 00:07:29:15
beyond one way communication

00:07:29:15 - 00:07:30:21
to genuine involvement.

00:07:30:21 - 00:07:31:23
So what does sort of

00:07:32:00 - 00:07:33:00
meaningful engagement

00:07:33:00 - 00:07:34:16
actually look like in practice

00:07:34:17 - 00:07:37:02
on a PFAS project?

00:07:37:04 - 00:07:37:11
I guess,

00:07:37:12 - 00:07:39:10
moving beyond that communication

00:07:39:10 - 00:07:41:06
piece, and that's

00:07:42:10 - 00:07:45:08
when going out to community.

00:07:45:09 - 00:07:48:08
It's not about telling them

00:07:48:10 - 00:07:49:05
in more ways

00:07:49:05 - 00:07:50:18
that one way communication

00:07:50:18 - 00:07:52:16
where you have all your facts,

00:07:52:16 - 00:07:53:08
your figures,

00:07:53:10 - 00:07:54:21
your key information

00:07:54:21 - 00:07:56:22
and your communication

00:07:56:22 - 00:07:59:12
material ready to go yet

00:07:59:12 - 00:08:00:18
that's one part of it,

00:08:00:18 - 00:08:02:23
but it's also having a deep

00:08:03:00 - 00:08:04:00
understanding as to who

00:08:04:01 - 00:08:05:08
you're actually dealing with out

00:08:05:09 - 00:08:06:05
in that community.

00:08:06:07 - 00:08:07:12
in sparsely

00:08:07:14 - 00:08:08:16
populated areas,

00:08:08:17 - 00:08:10:02
agricultural areas,

00:08:10:02 - 00:08:13:01
to suburban and city centers.

00:08:13:03 - 00:08:15:05
Where there is PFAS prevalent,

00:08:15:05 - 00:08:17:14
there are going to be different drivers

00:08:17:14 - 00:08:19:03
that influence.

00:08:19:03 - 00:08:19:15
There are going

00:08:19:15 - 00:08:21:03
to be different interests

00:08:21:03 - 00:08:22:14
for those individuals.

00:08:22:16 - 00:08:25:12
If I use an example of, say,

00:08:25:14 - 00:08:28:11
if you're in a sparsely populated area,

00:08:28:12 - 00:08:30:05
there happens to PFAS

00:08:30:06 - 00:08:31:19
that needs to be remediated

00:08:31:19 - 00:08:33:02
as just a scenario

00:08:33:02 - 00:08:35:06
that particular community member

00:08:35:06 - 00:08:36:08
and or stakeholder

00:08:36:09 - 00:08:39:02
may have livestock on their property.

00:08:39:04 - 00:08:40:18
So going in there

00:08:40:18 - 00:08:42:11
with all of the science

00:08:42:11 - 00:08:46:09
but not having information, say around

00:08:46:14 - 00:08:49:08
how could this affect properties

00:08:49:08 - 00:08:51:13
within that agricultural space

00:08:51:14 - 00:08:53:09
would be a little bit of a mess.

00:08:53:09 - 00:08:55:23
So getting a clear understanding

00:08:55:23 - 00:08:57:14
as to who the stakeholders are

00:08:57:15 - 00:08:58:11
that we need

00:08:58:13 - 00:08:59:00
speak to,

00:08:59:01 - 00:08:59:22
and that's pretty,

00:08:59:23 - 00:09:00:20
I guess that's an approach

00:09:00:20 - 00:09:02:22
that we take across a lot of projects.

00:09:02:22 - 00:09:04:04
But the nuance for

00:09:04:04 - 00:09:05:00
this is knowing

00:09:05:00 - 00:09:05:14
what's in it

00:09:05:14 - 00:09:07:07
for that particular stakeholder

00:09:07:07 - 00:09:08:23
in wanting to understand more.

00:09:09:00 - 00:09:10:10
That might be nuance

00:09:10:10 - 00:09:12:02
to their particular property,

00:09:12:03 - 00:09:13:18
say, for example, as well.

00:09:13:18 - 00:09:14:22
So it's very difficult

00:09:14:22 - 00:09:16:05
to develop a one size fits

00:09:16:06 - 00:09:18:01
all engagement program.

00:09:18:01 - 00:09:19:06
I'm guessing based on that,

00:09:19:07 - 00:09:20:10
it's more about assessing

00:09:20:10 - 00:09:21:11
who you're dealing with,

00:09:21:11 - 00:09:22:10
what their issues are

00:09:22:10 - 00:09:23:15
and what their concerns are,

00:09:23:16 - 00:09:24:22
and then trying to work

00:09:24:22 - 00:09:25:23
something around that.

00:09:26:00 - 00:09:29:00
Would that be It would be one example

00:09:29:06 - 00:09:31:21
it was a PFAS project for a client,

00:09:31:21 - 00:09:33:04
and a component of

00:09:33:05 - 00:09:34:22
that was getting access to ensure

00:09:34:22 - 00:09:36:09
that we could do the monitoring

00:09:36:09 - 00:09:37:07
that was required.

00:09:37:07 - 00:09:38:18
So the technical teams

00:09:38:18 - 00:09:40:18
were able to go out and undertake

00:09:40:18 - 00:09:41:09
that work.

00:09:41:10 - 00:09:43:21
This particular location,

00:09:43:23 - 00:09:45:09
we had a couple of sites.

00:09:45:09 - 00:09:48:08
One of the sites was a high rise

00:09:48:10 - 00:09:51:10
apartment building and it also

00:09:51:10 - 00:09:52:11
it was quite close

00:09:52:11 - 00:09:54:22
to a main waterway as well

00:09:54:23 - 00:09:57:10
where there was fishing, boating,

00:09:57:12 - 00:09:59:05
people swimming in the water.

00:09:59:05 - 00:10:01:10
So for this particular project,

00:10:01:10 - 00:10:03:02
this particular case, that ongoing

00:10:03:03 - 00:10:04:12
monitoring, determined

00:10:04:12 - 00:10:07:14
that there wasn't an issue

00:10:07:16 - 00:10:09:17
that needed to be resolved.

00:10:09:17 - 00:10:10:15
As such.

00:10:10:16 - 00:10:12:11
However, we needed to undertake

00:10:12:12 - 00:10:14:14
that ongoing monitoring.

00:10:14:15 - 00:10:16:10
And as part of that,

00:10:16:12 - 00:10:18:03
knowing how to engage

00:10:18:03 - 00:10:18:16
with that

00:10:18:16 - 00:10:21:01
particular stakeholder community

00:10:21:02 - 00:10:23:03
group was very important,

00:10:23:03 - 00:10:25:21
because we're not going to them

00:10:25:21 - 00:10:28:08
in presenting a potential

00:10:28:09 - 00:10:29:19
what if you have

00:10:29:19 - 00:10:31:21
contamination on your property,

00:10:31:21 - 00:10:33:16
but we're also asking them

00:10:33:16 - 00:10:34:20
for access

00:10:34:20 - 00:10:35:07
on an

00:10:35:08 - 00:10:36:17
ongoing basis

00:10:36:17 - 00:10:39:09
and to accommodate us to do our work

00:10:39:09 - 00:10:42:19
at the site quite common as well.

00:10:43:15 - 00:10:45:04
that relationship and trust

00:10:45:05 - 00:10:46:21
is really important

00:10:46:21 - 00:10:49:18
because if you don't have that,

00:10:49:19 - 00:10:50:11
you always come

00:10:50:11 - 00:10:51:16
to a bit of a standstill.

00:10:51:16 - 00:10:52:15
In some cases

00:10:52:15 - 00:10:55:18
where you don't get access to undertake

00:10:56:05 - 00:10:57:06
the assessments

00:10:57:06 - 00:10:58:01
and the studies

00:10:58:01 - 00:11:00:02
that are needed, or the monitoring

00:11:00:02 - 00:11:01:16
and the stakeholder or community

00:11:01:16 - 00:11:02:12
member

00:11:02:14 - 00:11:04:04
doesn't get the information

00:11:04:04 - 00:11:05:15
that they need either.

00:11:05:17 - 00:11:07:06
it's all over in multi-layered,

00:11:07:07 - 00:11:07:17
of course.

00:11:07:17 - 00:11:08:16
And then let's add

00:11:08:16 - 00:11:09:12
another layer to that.

00:11:09:12 - 00:11:11:16
And that's PFAS regulation

00:11:11:16 - 00:11:13:00
through various government levels.

00:11:13:00 - 00:11:14:16
And that must also add

00:11:14:16 - 00:11:15:13
to the complexity

00:11:15:13 - 00:11:16:06
and the difficulty

00:11:16:06 - 00:11:17:20
of handling these situations.

00:11:17:20 - 00:11:18:18
Is that right?

00:11:18:20 - 00:11:19:11
It does.

00:11:19:11 - 00:11:21:07
From a technical perspective,

00:11:21:09 - 00:11:22:14
the variations do

00:11:22:15 - 00:11:26:02
make sense from a community perspective

00:11:26:13 - 00:11:27:19
as far as they're concerned.

00:11:27:19 - 00:11:29:10
If I was a community member,

00:11:29:11 - 00:11:31:06
it's a broad brush.

00:11:31:08 - 00:11:32:20
It's all the same to them.

00:11:32:20 - 00:11:36:22
So being sensitive and listening

00:11:37:00 - 00:11:38:10
and being able to explain

00:11:38:10 - 00:11:39:20
that to is important.

00:11:39:20 - 00:11:42:03
And being patient around

00:11:42:03 - 00:11:44:08
they may not be ready to listen to you

00:11:44:08 - 00:11:45:05
just as yet

00:11:45:06 - 00:11:46:15
at times as well,

00:11:46:17 - 00:11:47:19
because it can be

00:11:47:19 - 00:11:49:16
quite an emotional topic

00:11:49:16 - 00:11:51:04
for some community members,

00:11:51:04 - 00:11:52:16
depending on how they're affected

00:11:52:16 - 00:11:56:01
by the issue or the challenge to

00:11:56:21 - 00:11:57:19
to understand

00:11:57:19 - 00:12:00:13
and be ready to actually speak to you

00:12:00:15 - 00:12:01:23
in a meaningful way.

00:12:01:23 - 00:12:02:17
So it's just having

00:12:02:17 - 00:12:04:05
that respectful approach

00:12:04:05 - 00:12:05:20
to how you engage

00:12:05:21 - 00:12:08:03
in terms of communicating that.

00:12:08:03 - 00:12:10:07
Because if the organization

00:12:10:07 - 00:12:11:22
doesn't explain the why

00:12:11:23 - 00:12:13:17
behind, say, a particular

00:12:13:17 - 00:12:15:09
regulatory change

00:12:15:11 - 00:12:17:07
and you keep pushing ahead

00:12:17:07 - 00:12:20:09
with the program, but internal team

00:12:20:23 - 00:12:22:15
or organization side, you're like,

00:12:22:15 - 00:12:23:13
we're all across it,

00:12:23:14 - 00:12:24:18
we know what we're doing.

00:12:24:18 - 00:12:26:18
But that message isn't communicated.

00:12:26:19 - 00:12:28:19
It may be perceived,

00:12:28:19 - 00:12:31:13
and in most cases it's not true.

00:12:31:13 - 00:12:33:05
But the community member may feel

00:12:33:05 - 00:12:33:17
as if you're

00:12:33:17 - 00:12:35:14
with held information from them.

00:12:35:14 - 00:12:37:17
So having that transparency,

00:12:37:17 - 00:12:39:06
and that's where I guess,

00:12:39:06 - 00:12:40:23
that proactive communication

00:12:40:23 - 00:12:42:04
and having an understanding

00:12:42:04 - 00:12:43:01
as to

00:12:43:03 - 00:12:44:11
what does the remediation

00:12:44:11 - 00:12:46:11
or the cleanup program look like,

00:12:46:11 - 00:12:47:10
what are the steps

00:12:47:10 - 00:12:49:02
from a technical perspective,

00:12:49:02 - 00:12:51:13
and where can we proactively pick

00:12:51:15 - 00:12:52:19
key activities

00:12:52:19 - 00:12:54:11
to communicate to community,

00:12:54:11 - 00:12:55:00
to start

00:12:55:00 - 00:12:57:01
building that trust and rapport

00:12:57:01 - 00:12:59:18
so that they know what you're doing?

00:12:59:19 - 00:13:01:10
You're not just surprising them,

00:13:01:11 - 00:13:02:10
say a couple of weeks.

00:13:02:10 - 00:13:03:19
There are a couple of days before

00:13:03:19 - 00:13:05:21
with needing to do something,

00:13:05:21 - 00:13:08:04
and it's almost building that

00:13:08:06 - 00:13:10:17
education playbook as to

00:13:11:16 - 00:13:12:19
how to help the community

00:13:12:19 - 00:13:14:05
better understand

00:13:14:07 - 00:13:15:15
how we're cleaning up

00:13:15:15 - 00:13:17:22
this emerging contaminant.

00:13:18:00 - 00:13:20:04
how important is cultural awareness,

00:13:20:06 - 00:13:21:00
especially

00:13:21:00 - 00:13:21:22
when you're dealing with, say,

00:13:21:23 - 00:13:22:21
First Nation communities?

00:13:22:21 - 00:13:23:22
So not just Australia.

00:13:23:23 - 00:13:24:14
Could be Canada

00:13:24:15 - 00:13:25:13
could be the US

00:13:25:14 - 00:13:27:03
anywhere else in the world.

00:13:27:05 - 00:13:28:11
First Nations engagement

00:13:28:11 - 00:13:30:07
I know speaking for PhD,

00:13:30:08 - 00:13:33:10
we we pride ourselves in First

00:13:33:12 - 00:13:34:12
Nations leading

00:13:34:13 - 00:13:36:12
First Nations conversations.

00:13:36:12 - 00:13:38:21
I know the teams that I've worked in,

00:13:38:22 - 00:13:41:06
we've always taken that approach

00:13:41:06 - 00:13:43:04
where we engaged.

00:13:43:04 - 00:13:45:14
We've got a First Nations member who

00:13:45:16 - 00:13:46:14
where we can,

00:13:46:15 - 00:13:47:10
is local

00:13:47:11 - 00:13:50:18
to that particular region, understands

00:13:50:21 - 00:13:51:19
the community

00:13:51:19 - 00:13:54:06
and is able engage with them,

00:13:54:06 - 00:13:56:04
and it is separate to the wider

00:13:56:04 - 00:14:00:01
community as well to respect

00:14:00:03 - 00:14:00:22
that particular

00:14:00:23 - 00:14:02:03
First Nations

00:14:02:03 - 00:14:04:01
or traditional owner group,

00:14:04:01 - 00:14:05:19
where we've had the one

00:14:05:20 - 00:14:07:06
on one discussions

00:14:07:08 - 00:14:10:05
with that, I will say it takes time

00:14:10:05 - 00:14:11:09
and we have to

00:14:11:10 - 00:14:15:09
respect those times as well because it

00:14:15:11 - 00:14:16:15
it is a complex issue

00:14:16:15 - 00:14:17:15
that we're dealing with.

00:14:17:15 - 00:14:19:20
And you can't rush building

00:14:19:20 - 00:14:21:08
that understanding.

00:14:21:10 - 00:14:23:05
Let's take a look ahead for, say,

00:14:23:06 - 00:14:24:13
5 to 10 years.

00:14:24:15 - 00:14:26:01
As PFAS regulation

00:14:26:01 - 00:14:27:10
matures and community

00:14:27:12 - 00:14:28:22
expectations rise,

00:14:28:23 - 00:14:31:04
what will differentiate organizations

00:14:31:04 - 00:14:32:02
that lead on

00:14:32:04 - 00:14:34:06
PFAS engagement from those that

00:14:34:06 - 00:14:35:19
that fall behind?

00:14:35:21 - 00:14:38:21
That's a really big question, Ben, and

00:14:39:06 - 00:14:40:12
a good one too.

00:14:40:14 - 00:14:42:07
And I would say over the next

00:14:42:07 - 00:14:45:09
5 to 10 years, organizations

00:14:45:11 - 00:14:47:03
that lead will be

00:14:47:03 - 00:14:48:16
the ones that treat engagement

00:14:48:16 - 00:14:50:04
as a core capability.

00:14:50:04 - 00:14:51:22
And when I say engagement,

00:14:51:23 - 00:14:54:13
it is that upfront early engagement,

00:14:54:13 - 00:14:56:07
yes, it applies to all projects,

00:14:56:07 - 00:14:58:03
but in particular for PFAS,

00:14:58:04 - 00:14:59:13
because you want to build

00:14:59:13 - 00:15:01:09
that trust and rapport early

00:15:01:11 - 00:15:02:13
trust in particular.

00:15:02:14 - 00:15:03:09
That is what

00:15:03:10 - 00:15:05:17
equates to a social license.

00:15:05:17 - 00:15:08:17
And a social license isn't earned.

00:15:08:19 - 00:15:11:06
it's not a ticket that you get

00:15:11:08 - 00:15:13:00
I guess at the start

00:15:13:00 - 00:15:14:13
or midway through your project

00:15:14:13 - 00:15:16:12
or after your first info session

00:15:16:12 - 00:15:17:08
with community,

00:15:17:08 - 00:15:20:06
and you keep at the back pocket and

00:15:20:08 - 00:15:21:03
that's it.

00:15:21:05 - 00:15:22:22
It's something that you've got to

00:15:22:23 - 00:15:25:10
work on to maintain over time.

00:15:25:10 - 00:15:26:14
And that may be

00:15:26:16 - 00:15:28:07
not just for the life of the project.

00:15:28:07 - 00:15:31:05
It could also be a little bit after

00:15:31:07 - 00:15:33:13
and that to me,

00:15:33:13 - 00:15:35:11
I would say over the next

00:15:35:11 - 00:15:36:13
5 to 10 years,

00:15:36:13 - 00:15:37:21
those organizations

00:15:37:21 - 00:15:39:10
who really take

00:15:39:10 - 00:15:41:09
that proactive approach

00:15:41:11 - 00:15:42:13
in investing

00:15:42:13 - 00:15:44:10
in those early relationships

00:15:44:11 - 00:15:46:20
will be the ones that really,

00:15:46:22 - 00:15:47:09
I guess,

00:15:47:09 - 00:15:48:20
start to build that guess,

00:15:48:20 - 00:15:50:08
meaningful social license

00:15:50:08 - 00:15:51:09
with community,

00:15:51:09 - 00:15:53:07
but also those

00:15:53:07 - 00:15:55:02
that stay visible,

00:15:55:02 - 00:15:56:13
accountable and are present.

00:15:56:13 - 00:15:59:17
And that's a tough one, because usually

00:15:59:19 - 00:16:00:17
with PFAS you're

00:16:00:17 - 00:16:01:23
dealing with

00:16:02:01 - 00:16:04:02
highly emotive stakeholders

00:16:04:02 - 00:16:05:13
and community members,

00:16:05:13 - 00:16:08:14
and sometimes it just takes time

00:16:08:16 - 00:16:09:12
to take the heat

00:16:09:12 - 00:16:10:16
out of the conversation

00:16:10:16 - 00:16:13:05
before someone is ready to engage you

00:16:13:05 - 00:16:14:17
in a meaningful way.

00:16:14:19 - 00:16:15:22
If that's the case,

00:16:15:22 - 00:16:17:08
that's what needs to happen.

00:16:17:08 - 00:16:19:13
And those early

00:16:19:13 - 00:16:20:22
meaningful relationships

00:16:20:22 - 00:16:24:02
will really help in that space.

00:16:24:08 - 00:16:26:12
Ultimately, leadership on PFAS

00:16:26:13 - 00:16:29:12
won't be judged, in my view.

00:16:29:14 - 00:16:31:03
On the solution,

00:16:31:04 - 00:16:33:03
the scientist is a lot better.

00:16:33:05 - 00:16:34:16
We've got the solutions.

00:16:34:16 - 00:16:36:07
It's the experience

00:16:36:07 - 00:16:38:00
that that individual or community

00:16:38:00 - 00:16:39:13
member has throughout

00:16:39:15 - 00:16:41:03
their immediate process.

00:16:41:03 - 00:16:43:15
If you can build that trust, rapport

00:16:43:15 - 00:16:44:14
and you know what,

00:16:44:15 - 00:16:46:06
they may be really upset

00:16:46:07 - 00:16:47:20
at the whole situation

00:16:47:20 - 00:16:49:22
and the remediation.

00:16:49:23 - 00:16:52:16
However, if you give them a fair

00:16:52:16 - 00:16:54:00
and just process

00:16:54:00 - 00:16:55:13
and you're transparent

00:16:55:13 - 00:16:56:20
in how you're going to

00:16:56:21 - 00:16:58:02
undertake the work,

00:16:58:03 - 00:16:59:11
they'll be happy with that.

00:16:59:11 - 00:17:00:17
Or I won't say happy,

00:17:00:17 - 00:17:02:01
they'll be content with that,

00:17:02:01 - 00:17:04:06
and they'll still be unhappy

00:17:04:07 - 00:17:06:10
that it needs to be remediated,

00:17:06:12 - 00:17:08:23
but they'll appreciate the outcome

00:17:08:23 - 00:17:10:13
that you're trying to achieve.

00:17:10:15 - 00:17:11:14
then that's a great way to finish.

00:17:11:14 - 00:17:12:15
Sharon, thanks for your time

00:17:12:17 - 00:17:13:13
and your insights.

00:17:13:13 - 00:17:14:05
Appreciate

00:17:14:07 - 00:17:16:07
Thank you for having me, Ben.

00:17:16:09 - 00:17:16:14
Well,

00:17:16:14 - 00:17:18:04
if there's one takeaway from today's,

00:17:18:04 - 00:17:19:09
this PFAS

00:17:19:11 - 00:17:21:11
isn't just a contamination challenge.

00:17:21:11 - 00:17:22:20
It's a trust challenge.

00:17:22:20 - 00:17:24:00
And the organizations

00:17:24:00 - 00:17:25:06
that recognize engagement

00:17:25:06 - 00:17:26:19
as a core capability,

00:17:26:20 - 00:17:28:05
not just a communications

00:17:28:05 - 00:17:29:05
task, will be

00:17:29:05 - 00:17:31:10
the ones that navigate it successfully.

00:17:31:12 - 00:17:32:18
You can read the full two part

00:17:32:18 - 00:17:33:19
Nexus Weekly column

00:17:33:19 - 00:17:35:05
series on PFAS community

00:17:35:05 - 00:17:37:00
engagement on the Nexus platform.

00:17:37:00 - 00:17:39:00
And if you haven't already subscribed

00:17:39:00 - 00:17:40:04
via the Nexus home page

00:17:40:04 - 00:17:40:15
to receive

00:17:40:16 - 00:17:41:20
our latest articles,

00:17:41:20 - 00:17:43:15
podcasts and videos directly.

00:17:43:16 - 00:17:44:14
Thanks for listening.

00:17:44:15 - 00:17:45:21
We'll see you next time.

00:17:48:08 - 00:17:49:18
Brought to you by Nexus,

00:17:49:18 - 00:17:51:12
published by GHD.

00:17:51:14 - 00:17:52:20
Actionable foresight.