Water infrastructure built for certainty meets 1‑in‑1000 extremes

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Nexus, Publish By GHD.

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Where ideas connect.

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I'm Tina morano,

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your host.

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Today, we'll dive into a subject crucial
to our future intergenerational equity.

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Through the lens of infrastructure
and specifically, water.

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And with me today is Doctor Gemma Dunn,

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PhD, water
market leader for Western Canada.

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Hi, Gemma, and welcome. Hi, Tina.

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Thank you so much
for inviting me to be here today.

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It's great to be talking to you
about my favorite topic.

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Well,
before we jump into your favorite topic,

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can you tell us just a little bit
more about your role at GHD.

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Yeah. Cool.

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So I'm GHD´s water market leader
for the Western Canada regions.

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And that's everywhere
kind of left of Ontario.

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And my role is about growing our water
business.

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And I do this through understanding
what's happening in the water market,

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building relationships,
exploring opportunities, and developing

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strategic partnerships.

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Okay.

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Well, let's jump right into our discussion
then.

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We know that communities around the world
are facing complex challenges, challenges

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of aging, infrastructure, population
growth, climate change,

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and that water is really core
to community infrastructure.

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So given your background in water, Gemma,
I'm wondering

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what's going on in the world of water.

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Yeah.

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I mean, you've already kind of hit
the nail on the the crucial point,

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right, that communities around the world,
are facing these really complex

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and interrelated challenges that are
having an impact on our water systems.

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You know, it's helpful
to look at this for me

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through the lens of municipalities, right?

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Because they they're the ones that provide
water in Canada, and they're really

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at the frontline
of needing to foster economic prosperity,

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social equity and reconciliation
with First Nations,

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all while facing this myriad of complex
challenges like degraded watershed health,

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localized flooding, summer droughts,
changing regulation.

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You mentioned population
growth and densification.

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Climate change.

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And then as Covid exemplified,
there's also very,

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you know, there's deep uncertainty
about what the future holds.

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Right.

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And there seems to be a water story
in the news almost every week now.

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So so why are we in this state?

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Well, what's going on

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today is often shaped
by what's gone on in the past.

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Right.

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So let's take a look
at most Western cities

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which are predominantly serviced by three
separate water, types of infrastructure.

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So you've got your drinking water supply,

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the collection of wastewater
and stormwater drainage.

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Right.

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And historically,
these have been large scale centralized

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infrastructure with a single purpose
and single use mentality.

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And this utilitarian approach
just dominated the 20th century.

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And it's built on principles
that you can trace all the way back to Newton.

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Newton. Really?

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What do you mean by that?

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Okay, so our water

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infrastructure was built
with Newtonian principles, right,

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in classical science.

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So, you know, the
the world is viewed as a system.

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So in order to understand the system,

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you as a whole, you break it down
into the small constituent parts.

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We call it reductionism.

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So if you look at that
in the water sector,

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you know, as I mentioned,
we have three separate systems.

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We have a separate water system.

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So and storm water,

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you know, and each of these
is going to have its own department.

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It's unregulated in its own budget
and even engineering disciplines.

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So that's the reductionism lens.

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And the other one
is predictability. Right.

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So we have built long range forecasts
with predictable outcomes.

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And then the water sector, we always look

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at the historic trends
to help us plan for the future.

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And then the third one
is about the stability.

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So this is about like command and control.

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And we we, you know, approach water.

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As in the lens of controlling nature.

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Well,
what about the benefits to this approach?

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Well, in the 20th century,

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this this approach has brought tremendous
benefits, right, for billions of people.

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I mean, let's just take a minute to marvel
at the fact

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that you can get water out of your tap
everyday 24 seven

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even in the middle of summer
when it hasn't rained for months.

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Right. It's about it's incredible.

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It's improved public health, right?

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It's reduce
the incidence of waterborne disease.

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You know, it's to some degree it moderate
the risks of floods and droughts.

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We saw the generation of hydropower
and irrigated agriculture.

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But to me, the real challenge
is that we also treated

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water as a nuisance, as a threat.

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You know,
we didn't value water, much about water

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infrastructure
as largely out of sight and out of mind.

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We can be quite wasteful, right?

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That single purpose, single use mentality.

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You know, one of the questions is like,
do we really need to be

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using treated
drinking water to flush toilets?

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Water calls every get along? Yeah.

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And that's probably something

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something we don't think about
I don't think about that.

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So why is this approach
going to be a challenge for the future?

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So we're in this new era of complexity,
uncertainty and unpredictability.

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You know, and like Einstein once
said, we cannot solve problems.

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But the same thing can be used
when we created them.

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You know,
and there are just so many complex

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challenges for municipalities, right,
like grappling with population growth

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and this unprecedented demand for new
housing that's really prolific right now.

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And and when you think about it, it's
not just about building new homes, right?

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It involves building entire communities

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and all the necessary infrastructure
that is needed to support that.

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Right.

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Water and wastewater

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services are really critical components
of this infrastructure.

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And then you've also got aging
infrastructure assets

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that also need to be, remedied. Right.

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So you're trying to balance
all these investment needs,

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and keep affordability front of mind.

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So it's difficult.

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And so that's just the population
growth challenges.

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You add climate change into the mix.

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And now we have a whole other
layer of complexity.

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Well and I'll add to that, Gemma,
that, recent

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crossroads survey address questions
about climate change in water.

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In fact, 65% of global respondents

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said they've experienced events
and impacts of climate change.

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And that's not a surprise.

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But they also said that they want
their governments to spend more.

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To protect their communities
from the impacts of water related climate

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change events like the storms,
the floods, the rising sea

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levels, you know, and Tina,
that's important, right?

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That the heart of this issue.

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Right.

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We often needs to talk
about climate change

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in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.

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But really we experience
climate change through water.

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So there´s longer, hotter,
drier summers,

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which is just increasing droughts
and wildfires.

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We're seeing sea level rise,
you know, the warmer, wetter winters

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and the increasing Staunton intensity
is just, you know, causing more flooding.

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And what we're seeing is a system
that just being stress tested.

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Yeah.

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And the frequency,
I suspect, of these extreme events at sea

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seem to be increasing.

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I keep hearing the term unprecedented
in the news.

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Absolutely.

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Like where to where I live in Vancouver.

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We had this extreme heat
dome event in 2021, right?

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Temperatures were well over 40 degrees.

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Over 600 people died.

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This was the deadliest
weather event in Canadian history.

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Five months later,
we experienced catastrophic flooding.

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And this cut literally cut the Lower
Mainland off from the rest of the country.

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Right?

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It doesn't make it the highways,
the railways impacted the port.

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So you have two extreme events
within five months of each other.

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And, you know,

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the thing that's remarkable about these
is these each one of these was a one

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had a 1 in 1000 year chance of occurring,
which is incredible.

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And this is just one example.

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If you look around the world you're going
to see, another stories like it.

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And I think what's really important
for me to understand is that

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we just haven't designed our systems
for 1 in 1000 year events.

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We know we design them for 1 in 20,
maybe 1 in 50,

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but nothing like a 1 in 1000 year event.

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And so our infrastructure
is just not equipped to handle it.

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Yeah.
And we know these things are happening.

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We see them all the time.

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But it kind of feels like to me that we're
constantly in reaction reactive mode.

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Yeah.

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I mean, this podcast to me
was so interesting

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because it feels very timely
because I would say like, we're

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we're at a crossroads.

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We can't ignore the problem.

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And doing nothing is actually a choice.

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And inaction also has a cost.

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You know, remember we did the Acuanomics
report like a few years ago

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and that that highlighted
that like droughts and floods and storms

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would,
you know, caused losses of over $108

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billion to the Canadian economy,
you know, so really,

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we need to start
making some pretty bold decisions

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because quite simply,
we can't afford not to okay.

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Bold decisions. Like what?

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What do we need to do differently?

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How can how can we be more proactive?

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Well,
I love to take success stories, right?

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And show that like things are happening
and there's some

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really inspiring things
going on around the world.

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And it's important
to learn lessons from them.

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So one thing that's very important to me

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is that we change how we talk
about and think about water.

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Rotterdam to
me is one of my favorite examples, right.

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So we saw this complete paradigm shift in
the relationship between land and water.

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You know, Rotterdam
Water is now regarded as an opportunity,

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something that will make the city more
attractive, more livable, more resilient.

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And I think what's really interesting
about what they're doing is they're also,

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you know, talking about how it impacts
and can support the local economy.

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Australia is another great example.

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So they focused on the public health
benefits.

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So, you know, when they have these up
and extreme heat events and urban

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heat thing, you know, they showed
how green infrastructure really

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has the capacity
to reduce urban heat and save lives.

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And so they articulated the benefits
in terms of the money

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saved on the health care system.

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And those are fantastic examples.

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And we're also hearing a lot
about nature based solutions.

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Like my favorite topic,

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you know, nature based
solutions are absolutely crucial, right?

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Because this is about leveraging
natural processes to enhance resilience

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so they can create greener, cooler cities.

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They improve environmental health,
they reduce pollution and increase

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biodiversity.

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You know, it can provide social amenity
by having these beautiful green

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spaces and cities.

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And it can be used to mitigate flood
risk and, and restore natural habitats.

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So nature based solutions
are really important, sustainable

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and cost effective complement
to traditional infrastructure.

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You know, and I personally and like I'm
so proud of the city of Vancouver

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because they were one of the first,
Canadian cities to, you know,

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articulate this ambition
to become a water sensitive city.

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And the embedded green infrastructure,
these nature

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based solution practices
like in their own city strategy.

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That's wonderful.

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What about, the circular economy.

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How does that factor into the discussion.

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Well it's an excellent question.

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I mean so fundamentally the circular
economy is really about reducing waste.

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Right. And reusing resources.

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And this is also going to be crucial
for minimizing

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environmental impacts
as well as conserving natural resources.

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So let's take some examples.

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So in California
they're redirecting wastewater discharges

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that usually would end up in the ocean

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and instead converting them
into valuable water resources.

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So they're reusing water for irrigation

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industrial processes
and even drinking water.

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And it's interesting to me
because in Canada, this is kind of like a

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relatively new concept.

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But the city of L.A.

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started, experimenting with reusing water
way back in the 1980s.

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Right.

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Another really cool example I love to
share is in Oregon.

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So there's this group called
the Brew Crew,

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that have been using recycled water
to make beer.

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You know, some other examples as well.

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And, you know, as using,

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wastewater treatment plants, like taking,
those resources and renewable

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natural gas is being produced
from wastewater treatment plants.

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And we're even starting to explore

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the idea of producing hydrogen
from wastewater treatment plants.

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Another cool thing that's happening
in a lot of cities

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is taking the heat from wastewater
and using that again to

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for district energy heating,
which I think is very indicative.

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Yeah.

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And the use of recycled water
in food and beverage, that's pretty cool.

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I know you're working on something,
in the planning space.

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Can you talk to us about that?

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Yeah.

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So we were talking earlier about,
you know, uncertainty.

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So adaptive planning, adaptive pathways
planning is what we call it.

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adaptive pathways
planning is what we call it.

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And this is, an a proactive approach.

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And this is intended to help manage
uncertainty in water

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infrastructure projects.

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So we do this by exploring
multiple future scenarios

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and creating more flexible
and dynamic plans.

00;13;48;15 - 00;13;51;28
And why this is useful
because it's allowing water service

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providers to start making adjustments
now based on these changing conditions.

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And this is about ensuring resiliency,

00;13;59;17 - 00;14;03;15
having more efficient long term
water management.

00;14;03;18 - 00;14;07;19
And again, interesting
to know that in the Australian water

00;14;07;22 - 00;14;10;22
sector this is embedded in practice.

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It's also been embedded
into the British national standards.

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And we're just starting to see this,
you know,

00;14;17;09 - 00;14;20;09
have an uptick of interest in in Canada.

00;14;20;12 - 00;14;23;15
Now, those are lots of great examples
of positive investments in water.

00;14;23;18 - 00;14;27;07
And it's great to hear that municipalities
are recognizing these opportunities.

00;14;27;10 - 00;14;30;01
And the private sector and businesses
like the beer company,

00;14;30;01 - 00;14;32;17
they're thinking about
how to do things differently.

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And we certainly can be more aware
of this, precious resource.

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But how do we ensure
resilience as a community?

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But to me is like,

00;14;43;09 - 00;14;47;26
such an important question
because really becoming resilient,

00;14;47;29 - 00;14;50;28
the mom this whole systems approach right

00;14;51;01 - 00;14;54;07
not is working
and isolated pockets anymore.

00;14;54;10 - 00;14;57;29
And to do that
it requires all levels to collaborate.

00;14;58;02 - 00;15;02;11
So you know across government agencies,
within government agencies,

00;15;02;14 - 00;15;06;26
industry, business and community
like all need to get involved now.

00;15;06;29 - 00;15;10;13
So one helpful way to think about it is
if you want to have

00;15;10;16 - 00;15;15;06
a climate resilient city,
you know, the municipal government

00;15;15;09 - 00;15;19;18
can do what they can
to implement measures in the public realm,

00;15;19;21 - 00;15;22;20
but that so much land is
is privately owned.

00;15;22;20 - 00;15;23;00
Right?

00;15;23;00 - 00;15;27;00
So if you're only implementing measures
in the public realm,

00;15;27;03 - 00;15;30;18
it's very hard
to create a climate adaptive city.

00;15;30;21 - 00;15;34;16
So it's really about engagement
with citizens and the private sector.

00;15;34;19 - 00;15;36;00
Absolutely. And then yeah,

00;15;36;01 - 00;15;38;18
we all need to be personally invested
in the future of water.

00;15;38;18 - 00;15;43;10
So when you think about the future,
Gemma, what inspires you

00;15;43;13 - 00;15;44;23
now? What I find really

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inspiring is what we can learn
from indigenous communities.

00;15;48;22 - 00;15;52;27
So a lot of our infrastructure
solutions are multi-generational

00;15;53;00 - 00;15;57;06
and we tend to think really
about the next generation.

00;15;57;09 - 00;16;02;02
Whereas in First Nations they have
this seventh generational principle

00;16;02;05 - 00;16;04;17
and they take into account what they do

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today, seven generations into the future.

00;16;07;19 - 00;16;10;14
That's pretty, pretty progressive.

00;16;10;17 - 00;16;13;25
And when we think about designing
infrastructure, you're right.

00;16;13;28 - 00;16;15;25
We typically think one generation ahead.

00;16;15;25 - 00;16;19;18
So seven generations is truly remarkable.

00;16;19;21 - 00;16;20;08
Yeah.

00;16;20;08 - 00;16;24;05
And they you know, First Nations
also value water as a partner.

00;16;24;09 - 00;16;24;28
Right.

00;16;25;01 - 00;16;28;14
It's not about a commodity
that you can control

00;16;28;17 - 00;16;31;16
like it's it's
an integral part of communities.

00;16;31;19 - 00;16;35;10
Water has always showing us
it's pretty powerful

00;16;35;13 - 00;16;39;04
and we need to learn how to coexist.

00;16;39;07 - 00;16;41;05
So those things inspire me.

00;16;41;06 - 00;16;45;22
And, you know, so when I say that I'm,
I'm really inspired by the next generation

00;16;45;25 - 00;16;51;02
of practitioners and leaders
who are really embracing these challenges,

00;16;51;05 - 00;16;57;20
finding some very innovative ways to
to lead, lead change and drive us forward.

00;16;57;23 - 00;16;58;12
I've learned

00;16;58;12 - 00;17;01;11
so much about the challenges
facing our water infrastructure,

00;17;01;14 - 00;17;03;19
and we talked about aging systems

00;17;03;19 - 00;17;07;17
and climate change,
population growth, financial constraints.

00;17;07;20 - 00;17;12;06
We also heard about innovative approaches
like nature based solutions, adaptive

00;17;12;09 - 00;17;16;14
pathways planning, and of course,
these lessons from indigenous communities.

00;17;16;17 - 00;17;19;21
So I look forward to future conversations
about how

00;17;19;23 - 00;17;23;20
we can continue to value
and protect our most precious resources.

00;17;23;23 - 00;17;27;22
And I hope this conversation has sparked
some new ideas and inspired you

00;17;27;25 - 00;17;29;07
and us to think about

00;17;29;10 - 00;17;33;09
how we can all play a part in creating a
thriving and equitable future.

00;17;33;12 - 00;17;36;29
So thank you so much, Gemma
for your insights and your inspiration

00;17;37;02 - 00;17;38;01
today.

00;17;38;04 - 00;17;40;23
Thank you Tina,
I really enjoy the time with you today.

00;17;40;23 - 00;17;46;21
So thank you so much for having me.

00;17;46;24 - 00;17;49;29
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00;17;50;02 - 00;17;51;06
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